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The Atlantic staff writer Mike Giglio has been reporting on the Islamic State since before Americans knew what to call it. He documents his five years in the region for a new book, Shatter the Nations: ISIS and the War for the Caliphate.

He joins Edward-Isaac Dovere to discuss the abrupt changes happening in Syria. How did a phone call upend American policy toward its Kurdish allies? What’s happening on the ground now? And where will this new cycle of violence lead?

Listen for:

  • How refugees like those fleeing this new bloodshed try to hold on to home—Mike tells the story of a Syrian rebel watching the houses of people who hope to return

  • The backstory to America’s betrayal of its Kurdish allies

  • What President Donald Trump’s decision means for the fight against ISIS—a group that may not hold territory, but could rise again amidst the chaos

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